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SETEKh Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 9:00 am Post subject: GRAFIXXX |
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Greetings Fellow Humans,
Im looking for a DVD of the laest and highest quality computer graffix that I can play on my new wide screen TV. Something far out, tripped out, and extreemly artistik. Avant Garde meets acid meets source code.....maybe something in anime as well.....
I know the MindCandy cd was not made by people with a huge budget and expensive equiptment but I like to support people who are trying to push the limits of what they have to work with and I plan to order the MindCandy cd.
I would also like to find a high budget super quality DVD that will blow me away. I wanna find the DVD that blow away the pro's,,,,,,,
If you can offer any links or just point me in the right direction to a few of these it would be greatly appreciated...
please Email me FOR2THEFLOOR@AOL.COM
Seth Diggs
SETEKh
~from france to florida in the blink of an eye~ |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2003 11:19 am Post subject: |
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Believe it or not, while we made MindCandy on a budget, I took extreme pains to make sure that the encoding, levels, color saturation, etc. was as high quality as possible. We mastered the entire thing in 4:2:2, which is better than DV and translates to DVD's 4:2:0 better. So before you pass judgement, check out some of the stuff on the modern side (Le Petit Prince and Tesla and Lapsus come to mind) and you may like what you see.
One difference between our DVD and others is that ours is full motion -- 60 images a second (interlaced). Most other DVDs of this type are progressive, but only 24fps. So if you want a test of your progressive hardware, MindCandy would not be a great test -- but if you wanted to test your deinterlacer and see if it is truly working to spec (we also include calibration screens), then I doubt you'd find a better disc than MindCandy. |
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Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:47 pm Post subject: All the info you need about DVD's & progressive playback |
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Trixter wrote: | Believe it or not, while we made MindCandy on a budget, I took extreme pains to make sure that the encoding, levels, color saturation, etc. was as high quality as possible. We mastered the entire thing in 4:2:2, which is better than DV and translates to DVD's 4:2:0 better. So before you pass judgement, check out some of the stuff on the modern side (Le Petit Prince and Tesla and Lapsus come to mind) and you may like what you see.
One difference between our DVD and others is that ours is full motion -- 60 images a second (interlaced). Most other DVDs of this type are progressive, but only 24fps. So if you want a test of your progressive hardware, MindCandy would not be a great test -- but if you wanted to test your deinterlacer and see if it is truly working to spec (we also include calibration screens), then I doubt you'd find a better disc than MindCandy. |
I sugest the following websight
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html
It explains every thing you want to know. The many different ways DVD's can encode and flag frames for conversion to progressive scan, and the many, many ways it can go wrong. The simple answer is that not all DVD players can correctly de-interlace all materials. There are players that can. I have a progressive DVD player hooked up to a progressive scan TV and I turn off the de-interlacing simply because the mindcany disk was not encoded for progressive play back. If you turn it on, it causes problems. Not all DVD material is ment to be de-interlanced. It still looks great in 480p mode though. <grin>
I hope this helps.
Athelstan |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Tue Mar 25, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject: Re: All the info you need about DVD's & progressive play |
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[quote="Anonymous"] Trixter wrote: | I turn off the de-interlacing simply because the mindcany disk was not encoded for progressive play back. |
I'm confused by your statement: Wouldn't you want to disable de-interlacing with a non-interlaced source?
Also: Could you do me a favor and go to the Setup -> Video -> Computer calibration section and tell me how the "flickerbox" test looks on your gear? Does your gear pass the test? |
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dmw Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 211 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 7:22 am Post subject: deinterlacing |
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There are several types of deinterlacing and maybe your DVD player is having problems. There is Film deinterlacing and video deinterlacing. If your player gets confused and uses the wrong mode then the image won't look as good.
Another note is does your player have the Chroma Upsampling Bug? Lots of Sony, Toshiba, and Pioneer players have this bug. I have a Panasonic RP56 and it does not. It also has the Faroudja deinterlacer which is one of the best deinterlacers out there (fyi the company I work for makes a deinterlacer that is on par with and better in some areas than the Faroudja).
So, there are a lot of items that can make a difference when using a DVD player.
If you let me know the areas you had problems I can check them out at work and report back to Jim. I have access to 3 + Progressive DVD players and lots of good video equipment.
-dan |
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DorisAxline Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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Sorry about the confusion and I'll answer both of your questions as the same time. First of let me say that I got the progressive scan player after I got mindcandy disk, so when I wrote my last post I only talked about what I did when I first got my dvd player and put in the mind candy disk for a few demos when I first got my player.
First off I'm running a Panasonic RP-62 hooked into a toshiba 36HF71. I've been very happy with both so far. After reading both of your replys I went and watched a few demos with all of my options avalibe on my DVD player. The options were component interlaced out, componet progressive out with de-interlacer on and componet progressive out with de-interlacer off (I did not test with s-video out, but that seemed unnecessary.) With all of these options I passed the flickerbox test. Watching the demos, the demos looked best with componet progressive out with the de-interlacer on. I'm not sure why I turned off the de-interlacer to watch the demos the first time. I guess I was a bit naive about all of this.
So the result is there are no problems watching mindcandy with my setup and it looks even better if you can get a good progressive out DVD player. I hope this makes up for me opening my mouth and putting my foot in with my first post. Sorry guys and I can't wait for volume 2.
Athelstan
aka James James |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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No problem at all, and thanks very much for the clarification. (You had me worried for a second that I messed up the disc! |
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dmw Site Admin
Joined: 30 Jan 2002 Posts: 211 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Wed Mar 26, 2003 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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athelstan wrote: |
First off I'm running a Panasonic RP-62 hooked into a toshiba 36HF71. I've been very happy with both so far.
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The Panasonic with the DCDi is one of the best players out there. It has a few drawbacks--like slow layer change and long seek time (which you can notice/hear (in the case of my player) on MindCandy and some other DVD's).
I bought my sister an RP-82 for Christmas...pretty much the same player but it has COAX out instead of OPTICAL which is why I bought it...COAX is better (though some would debate this)
athelstan wrote: |
After reading both of your replys I went and watched a few demos with all of my options avalibe on my DVD player. The options were component interlaced out, componet progressive out with de-interlacer on and componet progressive out with de-interlacer off (I did not test with s-video out, but that seemed unnecessary.) |
I don't understand the component progressive with no de-interlacer. That isn't possible. Progressive = deinterlaced.
What I also recall(?) with my sisters player is I seemed to have to enable Progressive in the menu AND push the button on the DVD player. Also had to run the signal into the DTV input of the TV which accepts 480p. I only have a 27" Sony with S-Video. No component
athelstan wrote: |
With all of these options I passed the flickerbox test. Watching the demos, the demos looked best with componet progressive out with the de-interlacer on. I'm not sure why I turned off the de-interlacer to watch the demos the first time. I guess I was a bit naive about all of this.
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Strange. I haven't tested this but I would expect when in Progressive mode the flickerbox test would not flicker. Basically the fields are being deinterlaced (combined) so the odd/even would merge so to speak and the flicker would go away.
-dan |
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DorisAxline Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 12:09 am Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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dmw wrote: |
The Panasonic with the DCDi is one of the best players out there. It has a few drawbacks--like slow layer change and long seek time (which you can notice/hear (in the case of my player) on MindCandy and some other DVD's).
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Very very true, but the picture quality more than makes up for it. Besides, mind candy does not have a layer change. <grin>
dmw wrote: |
I don't understand the component progressive with no de-interlacer. That isn't possible. Progressive = deinterlaced.
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I looked up what the "video" mode is, and it turns off DCDi. This is what I used when I said "progressive with no de-interlacer." What exactly DCDi is and does is bit unclear to me now. How it comes up with the extra information to keep the output at 480p is beyond me, but I sence I know better I doubt I'll ever use the "video" mode again. All I know is that what I was telling was what I was incorectly re-memboring from this review
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=5#PanasonicDVD-RP62
dmw wrote: |
What I also recall(?) with my sisters player is I seemed to have to enable Progressive in the menu AND push the button on the DVD player. Also had to run the signal into the DTV input of the TV which accepts 480p. I only have a 27" Sony with S-Video. No component
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You are correct. It is very very odd but you must press a button on the front of the player to enable progressive out. Then you need to go into setup and adjust the black level to componet output. I generaly know what I'm doing with electronics and it even spun me around a few times to figure it out. Oh and you got to have an HD ready TV to enjoy all of this. I highly recomend it if you can afford it. Heck, I couldn't afford it and bought it anyways. <grin>
dmw wrote: |
Strange. I haven't tested this but I would expect when in Progressive mode the flickerbox test would not flicker. Basically the fields are being deinterlaced (combined) so the odd/even would merge so to speak and the flicker would go away.
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The flicker did go away, but it displayed the image as seen in the non-progressive mode. Well except there was no flicker, and the white was really white. I'll run this test on my old DVD player and see what it looks like there. I still have that hooked up because it's a region free player. Got to watch those never to be released in america DVD's.
What exactly is this test flicker test and how can you break it? I'm not sure I'm seeing the what I'm supposed to be seeing.
This entire discusion just reminds me it would be nice to have a consumer product that has native 480p resolution or even higher. I know DVHS can do it, but a $1000 for player and hadrly any moves to watch, it's just not worth it.
Athelstan |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:19 am Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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dmw wrote: |
Strange. I haven't tested this but I would expect when in Progressive mode the flickerbox test would not flicker. Basically the fields are being deinterlaced (combined) so the odd/even would merge so to speak and the flicker would go away.
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The point of the "flickerbox" test was to show that the player was correctly showing 60 different images per second. It was created to expose software DVD players that automatically deinterlace by blending two fields together (the "wrong" image on the left) or don't deinterlace at all (the "wrong" image on the right). Field blending, or taking no action at all (weaving), butchers the motion. The box in the middle, if you have good hardware, should be showing it's left half, then right half, then left half, etc., changing 60 times a second. |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 9:20 am Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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athelstan wrote: | What exactly is this test flicker test and how can you break it? I'm not sure I'm seeing the what I'm supposed to be seeing.
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See my reply to Dan above. What do you see when you run the test? |
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DorisAxline Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 10:26 am Post subject: Re: deinterlacing |
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Trixter wrote: | athelstan wrote: | What exactly is this test flicker test and how can you break it? I'm not sure I'm seeing the what I'm supposed to be seeing.
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See my reply to Dan above. What do you see when you run the test? |
Well I ran the test on my old DVD player and then ran it on my progressive scan player and they looked the same. I guess my DVD player notes when it's de-interlacing non-progressive material and displays the correct thing. <grin> I would love to know if all progressive scan players can pass this test. Does this anwser your questions?
Athelstan |
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Trixter Guest
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Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2003 11:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it does, thank you. I am relieved that you are seeing what is intended. |
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